A Paradigm For People Who Don’t Like to Sell with Catherine Watkin - Allyson Scammell

A Paradigm For People Who Don’t Like to Sell with Catherine Watkin

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Today, we’re covering an essential aspect of business that puts knots in (most) soul-guided entrepreneurs’ stomachs: sales.
Far too often, I see genuinely gifted entrepreneurs struggle to book their services or make a living doing what they love. Why?
Because sales conversations makes them feel… uncomfortable.
That mis-alignment with traditional sales tactics isn’t uncommon for many of my Soul Guide Radio listeners; but it doesn’t have to be that way.
Meet Catherine Watkin, a heart-centered entrepreneur who has cracked the code on selling with integrity by leading with heart.
This episode is packed with valuable information, that no matter how experienced or not you may be in the world of sales, you will directly benefit from it in the form of… you guessed it… more sales!
Listen in while Catherine explains the growing differences between traditional sales tactics and heart-centered selling, while also breaking down why sales can feel so hard for empathetic business owners, and how to connect your heart to the sales process to change that.
She also shares intimate details of her sales framework, which is the exact process her personal client’s use to get the ‘internal yes’ with their own soul clients.
PRESS PLAY on this episode: A Paradigm For People Who Don’t Like to Sell with Catherine Watkin, so you too can master the sales conversation and become a sold out soul-guided entrepreneur.
BONUS: At the end of this episode, Catherine extends an exclusive invitation that’s bound to change your relationship with sales to one that’s authentic and will have you selling out your offerings every time.
Guest Bio: Catherine Watkin is the UK’s leading expert in heart-centered sales. After a highly successful 20+ year career in sales Catherine works with business owners who are gifted and passionate about what they do but struggle in business because they feel awkward about using traditional sales. She teaches them how to sell in a way that feels authentic and comfortable – and most importantly gets them great results so they can grow a great business while still feeling true to their values. Catherine is an authentic and inspiring role model for how it is possible to create a successful business without resorting to sleazy or manipulative sales and marketing techniques.

In today’s episode we explore:

  • How heart centered sales are different than traditional sales,
  • The 7 key steps to a heart-centered sales conversation that connects you to your ideal clients, and
  • How you approach things like adding urgency and scarcity to your sales conversation in a heart-center way


This Week’s Invitation: Think about someone who has shown an interest in working with you but didn’t end up hiring you. Reach back out to them and see if they would be interested in having another conversation with you. 

Hello, my dear ones. And I tell ya, I always say I have a good episode for you because I do, but this one is really, really good. It’s really hands-on, you are going, I don’t care where you are in your journey, you are going to learn some juicy nuggets. This episode is for if you’re completely new to sales or you are a sales ninja and you want to go next level.

[00:00:25] I had the absolute pleasure of speaking to Catherine Watkin about heart centered sales, which she describes as a paradigm for people who don’t like to sell this episode is so important. Because I know if you’re here, you have a heart centered business and there’s a piece of you that doesn’t feel totally aligned with the sales process.

[00:00:50] This episode is going to get you into that alignment in a way that feels really, really good. And more importantly, leads to you, filling your business with just the right clients and customers. So in today’s episode, we explore how heart-centered sales are different than traditional sales, the seven key steps to a heart-centered sales conversation that connects you to your ideal clients.

[00:01:18] This is so good, you guys, and have to approach things that really work in sales, such as adding urgency and scarcity to your sales conversation in a heart- centered way, we’ll end on an invitation that will have you changing your entire relationship to sales to one that’s authentic and alive, and we’ll have you selling out your stuff every time.

[00:01:42] So I promise you, you’re going to want to stay with me until the end. Welcome to soul guide radio. A podcast for soul guided leaders, influencers, and entrepreneurs here to bring about change,  on a massive level, we explore how you can activate your big soul mission, amplify your intuitive gifts and clear the energy blocks weighing you down so you can gain unstoppable momentum in life, love and business.

[00:02:14] I’m Allyson Scammell your host and soul guide.

[00:02:26] Hey there soul guide circle, that is the name of this community of soul guided leaders, influencers and entrepreneurs. In the soul guide circle, we have big soul missions and want to earn more, serve more and grow spiritually along the way. If you’re not already a member, then I invite you to join our Facebook group of over 1100 leaders and Lightworkers who are in service to each other and the planet. I had the absolute best time chatting with Catherine on this super important topic.

[00:02:59] Catherine Watkin is the UK’s  leading expert in heart centered sales. After a highly successful 20 plus year career in sales, Catherine works with business owners who are gifted and passionate about what they do, but struggle in business because they feel awkward about using traditional sales. She teaches them how to sell in a way that feels authentic and comfortable, and most importantly gets them great results so they can grow a great business while still feeling true to their values.

[00:03:32] I really did learn so much from Catherine. And in fact, I immediately started implementing some of her tweaks to me and my process into my sales conversations. And I’m already feeling not only better about them, I’m seeing like direct results from it. So please enjoy this amazing conversation.

[00:04:05] I am so excited to welcome Catherine to the show. Hi Catherine,  hello, thank you for having me. Oh my gosh. I love this topic because my clients, I know my clients they’re out there. They’re listening. They struggle with this. So super excited to talk about heart centered sales with you. So should we just dig right in?

[00:04:26] Let’s dive in, straight in. It’s my favorite topic to talk about, so I’m sure we’ll have a brilliant conversation. Yay. So I’m going to start with a question that comes directly from the pains I hear so often from my own clients. So what do you say to entrepreneurs who see themselves as coaches, writers, artists, healers, et cetera, but not

[00:04:49] as a salesman or saleswoman. And in fact, they actually reject the idea in certain times in situations of being in sales or being a sales woman. Well, the first thing I’d say is that I’ve actually got a lot of sympathy with them, if they feel that they are not sales sales women or salespeople, because actually this is, this is one of the downfalls for people sometimes with sales is that we have these examples

[00:05:16] of what we think sales is and what we think sales is, is usually come from one of two places. One is experiences we’ve had of being sold to where it’s very much felt that it’s based around the agenda of the person doing the selling. It feels very self serving. It feels manipulative. It can even become bullying or shaming in some circumstances.

[00:05:40] So people who are heart lead, coaches, writers, artists, and so on have experienced that style of sales somewhere along the way. And when they come to being their own business, they say to themselves, but I’m a good person and I want to do good work. And that’s not the way that I want to treat people. But similarly, we have something that I call traditional sales to distinguish it from what I teach, which I call heart-centered sales.

[00:06:07] And again, they may have embarked on some sales training because they know that if they need their business to be successful, they’re going to have to get clients. And again, they learn techniques and approaches that just makes them have a knot in their stomach and the gain they feel, I don’t want to manipulate people or use psychological, psychological techniques.

[00:06:31] If this is what it’s going to take to be successful, then I don’t want any part of it. And they often end up doing nothing. And so the antidote to that, it does start with learning ways of selling that do feel more aligned and do feel more in integrity for people because you can’t force yourself to do something that just feels wrong.

[00:06:53] The energy of it is always going to be a bit out of whack. So it’s partly finding these ways of selling that actually do feel in alignment. But along with that is comes seeing sales as service. And what happens very often is that, um, heart-led entrepreneurs see the work that they do as service. So they see the work they do with their clients as service, and they see the sales piece as this nasty bit that they’ve somehow got to get out of the way as fast as possible before they can do the work.

[00:07:25] Whereas actually, when we, when we learn how to sell and make invitations in a way that’s confident and encouraging and effective that’s when we’re really serving, because it’s only by serving people by being willing to take them through an effective sales process that we help them see the value in actually doing the work with us.

[00:07:48] And so. Well, if people can make that shift into seeing sales as actually a service that they can’t afford not to offer because they’re not helping the client that can make a really huge difference. And then they’re more open to actually learnings a sales process like the one that I teach. Beautiful. I love how you lead with empathy.

[00:08:07] I think that’s, I’ve asked this question in various forms to other guests, and I’ve never heard anyone start with empathy the way you have. And I think that’s so brilliant. And this idea that most of us reject it because of our own experience and that feeling of manipulation. And we don’t want to manipulate others.

[00:08:25] I, I love how you framed that. So you sort of, you started to talk about this, but maybe you can take us through, the heart, the heart of what you see as what really sets  heart-centered sales apart from traditional sales. Yeah. So for me, and I’m sure your listeners will feel the same when we think about sales

[00:08:45] or somebody says the word salesman or sales person, what we immediately, our minds jump to is to the concept and paradigm of traditional sales, which is very much built around the agenda of the person doing the selling. So it could be somebody who’s got sales targets to hit, or they just desperately need to bring in some income into their business

[00:09:08] this month, it’s very much focused on getting the client to say yes. So it’s not really about what’s best for the client. It’s about what’s best for the person making the sale. There’s a lot of emphasis in traditional sales on things like closing techniques, you know, those techniques that you would use to get somebody to say yes to working with you, whether or not it’s right for them and objection handling techniques.

[00:09:33] And one of the things, one of the big distinctions, I guess, is, um, traditional sales feels like pursuit. It feels like the sales person is chasing and pushing the potential clients to suit their agenda and what’s best for them. And heart-centered sales is about collaboration, partnership, supports, it’s about putting what’s best for the client at the heart of the interaction.

[00:09:59] And if you believe that what you have is the best way forward for the clients, it’s not shying away from presenting that clearly from encouraging people to work with you from making a very clear recommendation or invitation. Um, but it’s not about pushing or pursuing and equally, that means that if it’s not the best thing for the client, you don’t invite them to work with you.

[00:10:24] It sounds quite obvious, but I think sometimes people get caught up in this, oh, I’ve been taught that I have to close the sale and getting on the call, having made a decision that you’re going to close the sale before you’ve even spoken to that person is really one sided. And it’s actually quite arrogant too.

[00:10:41] So the heart led sales really comes from what’s best for the client. And everything is led from that. I love it so much. Um, I love how you described the collaboration, partnership and support. That is so beautiful how you presented it. And it’s so funny. I’ve never before, like this just dawned on me. When I was in university, I had a summer job as a telemarketer and I was pedaling low interest credit cards.

[00:11:11] So talk about, it was everything that you’re talking about. It was pushing, pushing things to people who didn’t need it. I think a lot of the people who are signing up already had like credit problems, the last thing they needed was another credit card. And it was all these techniques that they taught us, whatever it took to get a person to.

[00:11:29] Yes. And, um, it’s, it’s just interesting how, uh, How I, I just like dawned on me like, wow. I was really in that, um, uh, in the heart of it. Um, that’s just not nice. And my own background as well. I worked in sales for a really large proportion of my working career before I came in to have my own business. And I worked in the recruitment industry.

[00:11:54] At one point, I was sent off on these training courses and taught NLP based techniques and psychological techniques. And I just used to come back to the office and think, oh my gosh, that’s just not how I want to treat people. I didn’t understand that then, because I didn’t have the language for it. But what I know now is that I always sold with integrity and I always did right by the people I was selling to.

[00:12:15] And you could have done, you know, you could have sold from the heart to sell low interest credit cards, you may not have made as many sales, but you could have been making sure that you were only selling to the people who really needed it and not to the people, but it didn’t, you might not have lasted long in the job of course, but, you know, Yeah.

[00:12:31] Yeah, exactly. No, absolutely. And I, I had this, um, enthusiastic style, which got me to a lot of yeses. I always had like, um, and of course they, um, they made it a competition among the telemarketers. Those who had the most sales in a night or the most signups to the credit card would win the whatever we’d win. And I was always one of the top three.

[00:12:54] And I think because I, I had this enthusiastic style that people like to buy things from people who are enthusiastic about it. So I think that’s a good thing, but you’re totally right. I could have approached this from an entirely different way. So let’s talk about this different way. I would love to hear your perspective on what, can you take us through a heart-centered sales conversation?

[00:13:18] I would, I would love to. And actually, um, yeah, I would love to, so yes. So heart centered sales conversation. So my process that I teach is called the seven steps to yes, for an authentic, heart-centered sales conversation and it’s a seven step process. And the idea behind it is that a lot of the small business owners that I work with feel really unconfident about a sales at all.

[00:13:44] So they will often avoid getting into conversations or even avoid getting back to people who’ve reached out because they feel so awkward about it. And I find that by giving people a structure, it gives them confidence. But it also means that their covering off all the important pieces in the right order,

[00:14:02] in order to help the client come to their own decision. And I call this the internal yes. So when I’m teaching sales, I say, what you really aiming for is not to close the sale because if you have to start using closing techniques, it’s probably too late. If the person doesn’t already know they want to buy from you and you have to bring out your armory of closing techniques,

[00:14:24] now you’re just trying to kind of, sort of, um, beat them with it until they say yes, If you can take them through a conversation that actually has them come to their own decision. And I call this the internal yes, because it means that they are almost energetically leaning forward with this feeling of, oh my gosh, this all sounds really good.

[00:14:43] I think I might actually want to do it. In fact, this feeling of yes bubbling up inside them. They’re still not telling you that. And that’s what this process is designed to do. So I’ll run through it really quickly, but I can also let your listeners know where they can go and sign up to get a more detailed version of it.

[00:15:00] So that process starts with step one, which is set the agenda. And this is about making sure that the client knows what’s going to be happening. It’s also where you establish that you may be making an offer later on so that if, and when you do that, they don’t suddenly feel that you’ve switched and become a, a sleazy salesperson

[00:15:18] where five minutes ago, you were being a really caring consultant. Step two is open up, and this is where you ask questions to start getting to know that client, but they’re not very deep. You’re just building the rapport and building the trust. So you may even ask, you know, tell me a little bit about, what’s prompted you to book this call with me today.

[00:15:38] Or for example, you might be a parenting coach. You might say, tell me a little bit about your children. You know, how old are they? What are their names? You’re just opening up the flow. Step three is called explore problem. And this is where you dig a bit deeper, but you have to be quite sensitive to the energy of the conversation, because if you go into step three too soon, this is where people can feel like you’re being intrusive and will clam up and sort of close up.

[00:16:04] So when you feel the rapport is there and you can feel that energy shift and that the potential client is very comfortable, you just start asking those deeper questions about what’s really going on for them. Um, you might, they might have mentioned something in step two. When you say, can you tell me a bit more about that?

[00:16:22] You might ask them how it’s impacting on other areas of their life. You might ask them how that makes them feel and how they feel about the future, if they don’t resolve this, you’re just starting to encourage them to take a pause in their life for a moment and really take a good look at what’s going on for them.

[00:16:40] You’re not creating problems. You’re not creating fear. That’s traditional sales. You’re not creating problems that don’t exist. You’re not bringing up fear in the eyes of your client. You’re literally asking them to reflect on how they are feeling and what’s preoccupying them. Step four then is test commitment.

[00:16:57] It’s really, really short. So you literally want to check in and ask one simple question to get a feel for how serious they are about doing something about it because we’ve all got problems in all different areas of our lives. We’re human beings. Of course we have. But at any one point in time, we’re not all in a position where we’re investing in working on those different things.

[00:17:17] So you want to get some sense of, are they really serious? Are they really committed or are they just enjoying the opportunity to, um, to talk to somebody, but it’s not necessarily going to go any further. Step five is compelling future. Very often, the reason that people don’t end up buying from you is that they don’t really believe that things can be any different.

[00:17:38] They might have been struggling with that business for the last six years. They might have been struggling with their health for 10 years. Their relationship might have been on the rocks for three years. They might feel they already tried lots of things. There has to be a belief in them that things really can be better.

[00:17:55] And so in step five, you ask questions to help your clients step into this potential future that they can genuinely get excited about and believe in the possibility that things can be different, because if they don’t believe in that possibility, they’re not going to invest time and money in achieving that possibility.

[00:18:12] Then step six is present solution. And before you go into step six, this is partly where the selling with integrity comes in. You want to pause and ask yourself the question, do I believe that I, and what I offer is a good solution for this person? And even do I believe that I am the best solution for this person?

[00:18:34] And even do I believe that doing this work right now is the best way forward for them because it might be the right thing, but not right now for various reasons. And only if you feel absolutely an integrity with yes, absolutely, they should be doing this work. In fact, I would be really worried about them

[00:18:50] if they were to go away and not do this, you would then lead into presenting your, um, your offer. You would make sure that you had their agreement, that you were going to do that. And that’s where it doesn’t come in as being salesy. And there’s, this is quite a technical piece. I’m just going to fly over this now.

[00:19:08] Cause it takes me, I have a whole module on this in my course, but you present the solution the way that you work, your program, your service, whatever it is in a way that when that client listens to you talking, they can hear loud and clear why this is the right solution for them. So by the time you come to state the price, If you’ve done the rest of the core really well, it should be really clear to them

[00:19:32] the value of that. And you. And you, then once you’ve presented that offer, you go to step seven and you literally ask them one question, which is to ask them to make a decision. Now there’s different ways of asking them, but it can be as simple as what do you think, is this something you’d like to go ahead with or whatever way you might find to ask and that process.

[00:19:56] And then of course you’ll get an answer, which is, might be a, yes, it might be no might be a, I need to think about it might be, I can’t afford it. And that then will direct where you take that conversation next. But that process, if it’s done from a place of service and putting what’s best for the client at the heart of the interaction actually feels really, really comfortable for the person, for the business owner

[00:20:17] who’s doing the selling it’s really comfortable and it doesn’t feel salesy. You know what? I, I, I love that so much. It’s a great, great framework. And, um, I really like in step six when you, um, cause I imagine some of the listeners might be like, well, gosh, you know, how do you know, um, if they’re the right client or not like, uh, you know, and I think most of us get sort of that gut response are we, I think most of us have a sense probably pretty early on in the conversation you feel this connection.

[00:20:47] You definitely see their problems and you know, that you’ve got tools or ideas or solutions that really can help alleviate them and get them closer to their goals and dreams. But I like, like maybe, okay, so you’re on the fence and you’re not sure is this, this is client for me, or do I need to like refer them to someone else? I loved when you said I’d be worried about them,

[00:21:09] if they didn’t engage in my product, I think that’s kind of powerful. I have an analogy that I talk about a lot, because it’s the best way I can describe when. So sometimes when I’m teaching sales, I talk about how I am when I’m in a sales conversation, because I’m a business owner too. And I have sales conversations about joining my programs and some of my programs are quite high ticket in nature.

[00:21:32] And, um, it might be, you know, like it might be 10,000 pounds. The most expensive one has been 12,000. I don’t offer that currently, but it might be six or 7,000. So for an early stage business owner, this is quite a chunk of money. So I’m often talking about, you know, what’s going on in my own mind and emotions when I’m in a sales conversation, myself.

[00:21:53] And the analogy I use is like being a mama bear. Like imagine the feeling I have is like this fierce feeling of wanting to protect that client as if they were my little bear cub and the feeling is, you know, sometimes I will even say to a client, even if it’s not me, I really think it’s important that you get help with this.

[00:22:15] You know, I will be that clear and because, and I will make a very clear recommendation to work with me and I can be very clear. There’s a lot of conviction in my recommendation. I’m not being wooly or soft or saying, oh, you know, maybe I could help you. I’m very clear, but because it’s coming from this place of genuine caring, like,

[00:22:34] fiercely protective towards that person wanting to help them, being able to see that if they don’t do anything about this, things are unlikely to improve in the next six months. And things are, you know, they’re just going to have invested even more of their savings in that business without seeing any progress.

[00:22:50] And that that comes across to the client. And this is the thing like there is sometimes you can say the exact same words in a sales conversation, the exact same words but they come across to the client completely different. If they’re coming from a place of genuine caring and service and commitment to helping them compared to if it’s coming from a place of being self-serving and I don’t really care about you, but I really need to pay my mortgages.

[00:23:17] Yeah. Yes, absolutely. That is so good. If you don’t get help from me, I encourage you to get help or get support from somewhere else. That’s a really powerful statement, and it really does send the message that you are here in service. And, um, it’s, it’s no skin off your nose. I mean, obviously you want them to work with you, but if they don’t, you’re, you know, you’re going to be okay.

[00:23:43] And you just are really interested in that person getting the support they need. Yeah. And there’s a reality here as well, all around at non-attachment. So it’s very, you know, the further ahead, somebody as in business, the easier it is for them to come to a sales conversation with that complete sense of non-attachment because they’ve learned over the years that I can let this person go and the right, another one we’ll be along soon.

[00:24:07] In the earlier days of business, there is a much greater need for people to sort of dig into a place of trust and faith that if they treat people in this way, if they treat people with respect, if they learn how to sell  effectively that they can trust that process and they can trust that if they do let somebody go, then that’s that’s okay.

[00:24:27] You know, it takes some courage to be able to say, I really believe that you should get some support with this. And if it’s not me, please find somebody else who can, and of course, this is why the commitment to learning how to sell is so important because you can’t, you can’t do, you can’t have this sort of non-attached approach and also be really loose and  wooly with your sales process because non attachment and being really loose and wooly with sales just ends up with something really soft and fluffy, and the client ends up not going ad with you.

[00:24:59] So there’s this combination of a real commitment to mastering authentic sales combined with an ability to be non attached so that you’re doing what’s best for the client. And if you do what’s best for the client, it always comes back around and it will be best for you and your business in the long run as well.

[00:25:14] Nice. I so agree with that. Well said, um, one of the things that I’ve done through the years as I’ve in, in your, you know, this is a muscle memory, the more you do it, the better you get at it. And one of the things I say to my clients is if you can master a live marketing event, Facebook live webinar or whatever, some sort of live interaction with central clients, and then a follow on sales conversation.

[00:25:36] Like you could pretty much sell anything like having, or even if you don’t want to master it. But if you feel comfortable, do it, doing it, finding a way to do it in a way that you, you have fun with it. And I think we’re going to be talking about that in a minute and the way you can show up at your very best,

[00:25:53] it really is so powerful and really leads to getting the right people into your business. One of the things that I’ve done is I’ve gotten better at sales conversation from doing it for years is I see myself as interviewing the potential client in a way as much as they’re interviewing, or maybe that’s the wrong word, getting to know me.

[00:26:12] Um, just because I want to be so clear that they are the ideal client. Like I’m kind of laser beam focused now I’m just serving my ideal people. And if they’re not, it just means that they’re meant to work with someone else. So what do you say to that? Like, um, how you, um, it’s not just about them understanding you it’s about you understanding them.

[00:26:36] If my question is making any sense. Yes. And it’s, it’s a two way process. So yeah, I absolutely encourage this and this helps prevent it feeling salesy as well. That if you can set up your sales conversations and your sales process as either a two way process, which is where most people will, will be when they’re starting out.

[00:26:57] And by two way processes, let’s get together and have a conversation and let’s figure out together whether this is going to be right for you or not. If it turns out not to be right for you, that’s no problem. I’m happy to give up my time and do this. And if I don’t feel it’s right for you. I will also let you know, and you know, my work isn’t right for everybody.

[00:27:16] That’s the two-way process. The next step is actually to set it up as an application process. Now, this is super, super powerful, tends to be a little bit more of an advanced strategy for a more established business where you actually set your stall out. And this is the way that I do it in my business.

[00:27:32] People have to apply to work with me. They will have to fill out an application form and they are, they usually more have a feeling that they are being that they’re being assessed as much as they’re making the decision. And that’s really powerful as well. You know, I’ll often end sales conversations with the clients say saying, so, so what do you think, would you have me rather than the other way around?

[00:27:53] Yeah. I love that. I too went to the application process about a year ago. I love it. And I think I always approach sales, uh, conversations with the limiting belief that, oh, if I want to bring in five new clients then I have to do at least 15 sales calls, right? Like this idea that, um, surely not, everyone’s going to say yes, you have to have a lot of sales calls to get

[00:28:15] the number of clients you want. And I also dissolve that thought to, Hey, if I want five new clients, I will set the goal to do five sales goals, because I’m so clear on who I’m calling in. And that, that, that person can self-identify and be like, yup, Allison’s my coach. And by the time they get to the sales conversation, they’re there.

[00:28:36] They’re very close to a  yes, already. Yeah. And for those of us who are more established in business, that’s what we want to be aiming for. We want our clients to be showing up for those calls 95% made up. They just want us to help them get clarity that it is the right step and help overcome any concerns they might have. For somebody in the early stages of business.

[00:28:55] Maybe someone who’s just starting out who hasn’t had many paying clients, I normally advise the opposite. I say, make yourself available for as many sales conversations as possible because you’re honing your skills in sales and you’re mastering that sales process. So in the early days, it doesn’t make sense to put too many barriers in place.

[00:29:15] And also in the early days, you might not have a very big reach. And so if you put too many barriers in place, you might not actually get enough clients booking into your calendar for that to add up to a viable business. So you might just need the calendar to be more open for more people to step in and speak to you when you, when you haven’t got such a big reach, but as people as you get better and better known, you can put more and more barriers in place so that you end up with that people only end up speaking to you when they’re pretty much ready to sign on the line anyway.

[00:29:42] Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more. That’s exactly what I tell my clients. So I’m so glad you said that. Um, and, and like I said, okay, Practicing doing a solid sales conversation to me is one of the best ways, one of the best things you can practice in your business. Um, uh, so I totally agree with that. What are some of the common mistakes?

[00:30:02] Okay. Were we, we love each other. This is not a place of judgment. This is a place of getting better. So mistakes in air quotes, mistakes, you see people making in a sales conversation. Oh, that’s such an interesting question. Cause there’s, there’s two sides to the coin because some of the mistakes people make is they’re trying so hard, not to be pushy, that they end up not holding a supportive container for their clients

[00:30:25] to explore things. They might avoid the sales conversation in the first place. They might not step up and confidently guide the client through the conversation that needs to happen. They might not ask those questions that dig a little bit deeper and have the conversation that really needs to be had. So trying too hard, not to be salesy and pushy

[00:30:45] can be a huge barrier and a huge mistake where people are falling down, but then you’ve got the other side of the coin, which is, um, where people, even with the best hearts and the best intentions in the world, people often come across as overly salesy and pushy without intending to, and this will be things like

[00:31:06] being overenthusiastic. And this shows up as you don’t have to listen to your client for very long to go, oh my gosh, I can so help them and then jump in and stop telling them straight away the, how you could help your client needs to feel heard first. So being too, too enthusiastic jumping into quick, also slipping into telling people what they need.

[00:31:29] Nobody wants to be told what they need. It’s really important that your clients are allowed to make their own decision. Your job is not to tell people what they need or tell people what they should do. Your job is to describe how you’re going to help them so clearly, so compellingly, so articulately that they hear you describe it and they know that that is right for them and they feel they made the decision not you.

[00:31:58] Um, and another one is just asking very direct questions without softening it. Um, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s ways to ask things and there’s ways that get people’s back up and it might be the same question. It might be your client says, um, your client might say, oh, I can’t afford to work with you. And you say, oh really,

[00:32:20] how much have you got in savings?

[00:32:25] Says, I can’t afford to work with you. And you say, oh, um, Is it okay with you if I ask you a few more questions about that, or you say, oh, I totally understand. It can feel like a big investment. Um, Tell me if it wasn’t for the money, do you think you would be going ahead? So there’s these ways of softening a question so that the client remains open, and if you’re too direct, the client will shut down and stop answering and sort of clam up and just say, sorry, I’ve got to go.

[00:32:55] Those are fantastic tips and I, yes, yes, yes. This is really good stuff, Catherine. I see why you do this work. You’re really, really good. So you’re reminding me of, um, on the earlier days of my journey, I was in a discovery call with a woman who had a really cool business. And I was really genuinely excited to work with her.

[00:33:14] And unbeknownst to me, I apparently did a lot of talking in the discovery call. And, um, I think I was essentially, I don’t really remember telling her what she needs, but I just very clearly remember at the end, I was kind of like, so. Are we in this together? Are we going to do this? And she was like, oh, well, I don’t know.

[00:33:33] You just spent so much time talking on this sales conversation. I feel like if I did went on a coaching journey with you, there’d be no room for me in it. Yeah. So it was maybe a little bit strong. She could have found a way maybe to say it a bit more diplomatically, but I learned, I was like, I realized she was right.

[00:33:52] She was right. She said it very directly. Um, I had done so much talking in the sales conversation that, that she, she felt unheard and that was such a bam. It was like, um, sometimes those stinging feedback that hit home is what you need to hear. And I trust me, I’ve never done that again. And she gives you such a gift because most people would not have given you that direct feedback.

[00:34:18] Wasn’t that such a gift from her that she did tell you? So. So you could learn from? Huge gift. I think most people, I, myself, I tend to be a bit of a people pleaser. I would have just been like, okay, thank you. I’ll let you know, you know, and then get off the phone and just disappear into the night. And I think that’s what a lot of people will do and I’ve been guilty of it, but yes, she gave me a huge, huge gift.

[00:34:42] Yeah. Cause one of the things about a really good, heart-centered sales conversation is that, although from the point of view of the business owner, it is a sales conversation. That’s the purpose. You wouldn’t be there speaking to that person otherwise, you know, you’re not trying to set up new friendships or anything, but, but actually for the, for the client, a really

[00:35:04] good sales conversation actually becomes a direct experience of what it would be like to be in the container with you once they start the work.  Mm. Yeah. That’s beautiful. I love looking at it that way. Yeah. And so you’re holding the space, you’re asking them the questions. You’re not rushing them on. You’re being

[00:35:23] caring, you’re giving them, you’re allowing them to feel heard. And this is why one of the things that happens, I mentioned it already being overenthusiastic, but with here’s one of the downfalls of niching and specializing, obviously niching and specializing is super important from a marketing point of view.

[00:35:38] So I’m all for it. However, when you specialize in working with the same type of people, your client only has to turn up and say two sentences to you. And you’re like, yep, I’ve got you nailed you. I know exactly I can help you. Boom. And you can jump straight in and start selling. To your client, their experience is unique to them.

[00:35:58] They don’t know that you’re speaking to several people with their problems every single week, they feel unique. They feel alone. And they need to feel that you heard them. And if you don’t give them the space to speak and be heard and to respond empathetic empathetically and with compassion, if they don’t feel heard and cared for, of course, when you sell to them, they’re going to feel like, yeah, just selling because you need the sale and they’re not going to get that experience of how it feels to do the actual work with you.

[00:36:26] And they shouldn’t be different. I mean, people get this idea that sales is one thing, and then the way you work with clients is another thing. It shouldn’t be, it should be almost seamless. Of course the conversations are different because you’re not going to be doing the work in the sales conversation, but the sense of the container, the experience of what it feels to be in your energy, the style of

[00:36:47] coaching, the caring nature, all of that. It should be the same. It shouldn’t be like, oh, this is the sales, but it’s going to feel uncomfortable. And then we can start working together. Yeah. Yes. That is so good. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love it. So there are certain principles, I think you would learn if you took a traditional sales class and one of them is to always, um, in your sales to offer this idea of urgency

[00:37:13] and scarcity. So like, you know, buy now we only have five left or act now the, uh, sale expires tomorrow. And I always feel like that kind of gives me a little bit of a salesy vibe when there’s this urgency and the scarcity. And because we get sold to so much on social media and stuff. It can start to feel, you know, you can really start to feel bombarded with it, however  I’ve definitely noticed in my business and I’m definitely a heart-centered person.

[00:37:42] And I, I try to, you know, be a heart centered sales person. Um, I’ve noticed without a little bit of scarcity or urgency, um, Uh, the results just aren’t quite there. So scarcity and urgency does actually work. So how do you approach things like that in a way that doesn’t come across so salesy? Yeah. And I totally hear you with what you’ve just said.

[00:38:05] You know, I always say, you know that yes, you can learn to sell in a way that feels more in alignment with your values and feels more authentic. But ignore core psychological sales and marketing principles at your peril. This is the way that human beings are wired, whether you like it or not. And if we don’t harness those things, we often don’t get to serve the clients because the clients don’t make the decision.

[00:38:31] You allow it. You know, human beings mostly will, will put off a decision if they can, especially if it involves risk, they’re risking time. They’re risking money. They’re risking themselves, if the work you do involves them opening up emotionally and people will delay that. So I’ve got two ways to answer that question that comes from very different angles.

[00:38:52] One solution to scarcity and urgency is to actually run your business, according to what’s known as a launch model. Now this is typically used for online businesses. So in my business, I mainly only have group programs, so they’re not open all the time. I only open them a few, like one of my main sales course opens once a year.

[00:39:14] My membership opens twice a year. And so that’s great because the scarcity and the urgency is real. It’s closing on X date and it’s not opening game for 12 months. Now people who work one-to-one often think they can’t follow the launch model, but you absolutely can. So if you have, let’s say you have room for a book of 12 clients and that’s you fully booked rather than enrolling clients all the time.

[00:39:39] You could do a campaign twice a year to fill all of your client slots in just one three week period, and then you’re fully booked for the next six months and you do it again. So the launch model is one way, because that way you’re putting in genuine, you’re putting in a genuine deadline. And if you’re not doing the launch model and you’re enrolling clients anytime they can book in any time, it becomes a little bit trickier.

[00:40:04] You know, and your client knows that there isn’t really a real deadline. And so it feels a bit disingenuous. So no surprise people don’t do it because you want to respect your client’s intelligence. Right. So the way that I would get deal with it, there is just by being very, very transparent. And I might say to a client, look, you know, thank you for everything you shared with me today

[00:40:25] and based on everything we’ve talked about I would  absolutely love to help you with this. In fact, you know, you’re exactly the sort of person that I went into business to help. Um, I, um, and you would, you would say something like, I might not get the words quite right. People get the principle of it. You will  you would actually say, you know, um, What I really want for you is that you do make a commitment to do this work right now.

[00:40:50] I would hate to see you delay and put this off for another six months because blah, blah, blah. You can even point out where they might be based on what they’ve told you. And, and you can say for that reason, I actually built in an extra, an extra special gift or an extra special something. You might not call it a bonus because that on its own, that word bonus sounds salesy on its own .

[00:41:10] So you might say, you know, I really would love to incentivize you to make this commitment to yourself, to do this work. So if you get back to me within the next 48 hours and you sign up to do this work, I will include this an extra two hour intense intensive breakthrough session at the beginning. One of my clients does something where all of her work, her coaching is online.

[00:41:31] But if her, her early bonus deadline is that she will actually meet them in person for the first session instead. So you actually tell them why you’re doing it. You’re fully transparent. You know, I don’t want you to go away and think about it for so long that you end up not getting the help. And that’s why I do this.

[00:41:48] And your client then understands there’s a reason for it. So they don’t feel manipulated and they can see the sense in it as well. They can also they’ll recognize themselves. Oh yeah, you’re right. I might, I might put it off and you’re right. Well, you know, it’s time and yeah, go on then. Okay. I see what you’re doing.

[00:42:07] And I sort of like it. I like your clients often, like the fact that you’re giving them the encouragement, because they know that they would procrastinate on the decision if they could. So your clients sort of welcome that incentive and that transparency is the difference between being disingenuous versus you know, not using it at all, because as you’ve said, not using it at all falls flat.

[00:42:26] Yes. Oh, this is such good stuff. I, and I love how clear you are. The, the clarity is just so key in a sales conversation. I’d hate to see you delay because I’m in the process now where I’m I have some pre-sale my, my one-on-one is fully booked for the year. So the only thing I really have to sell is a program that’s starting in October.

[00:42:48] So I decided to do some pre-sales and there was no, I was falling flat on the urgency. There was a bit of scarcity. I was falling flat on the urgency because we’re now recording this in June. And these, these conversations even started back in April. And, um, of course I had early sign up bonuses, but I wasn’t really talking about them effectively.

[00:43:09] And then I started. And so then I sort of, um, regrouped, and to be honest, I talked to my coach about it. Who’s very good at sales conversations. And my coach told me, uh, you have to tell them why it’s in their interest to sign up early. And I was kinda like, oh, I was trying to say that, but I was using such flowery words.

[00:43:32] I was kind of talking around it and it’s as simple as. Here’s why you want to sign up early, or here’s why it’s in your best interest to sign up early, because you’re going to get this discount and these bonus stuff and this and that, and the other thing. And, um, I realized, I just wasn’t saying it clearly.

[00:43:48] And then when I just said that, clearly I got like two sign ups. Brilliant. Do you know what I’d love to do with you? If you, if you don’t mind me doing that, I’d love to give you the tiniest little tweet. Please. So here’s, here’s a reason why you might want to sign up early. Ooh. Even better. Here’s a reason why you might, why might want to sign up early because sometimes in sales, it’s that telling people what to do.

[00:44:15] This is why you should sign up early.  Why you want to sign up early and that’s great, but it sounds a little tiny bit like you’re telling them what to do. But if you say here are some reasons why you might want to sign up early, they feel the decision is in their hands. If that might maybe possibly, I call it possibility language, it leaves things very open for the client to feel that they made the decision.

[00:44:41] And not you yes, absolutely. So tiny little tweak will make a difference, but yes, what you were doing already was beautiful and you got the sales, which is amazing, but I don’t want to be no, but this is about getting better. And I, and I want, I don’t want to be that pushing, you know, like, so this is like, and this is the thing also with sales, these little tweaks in language really make a huge difference.

[00:45:06] Yeah. And the more your client feels that they made the decision, the more likely they are to go forward. As soon as the client feels that the business owner is making the decision on their behalf, even if it’s absolutely 100% in their best interests, they will start to shut. They will start to put their sort of barriers up.

[00:45:24] They’ll start to climb up. Yes, that is such a great tip. So, so for people who are a bit on the earlier side and even those who aren’t, because I feel like you can never get enough practice with this. What are some ways that we can actively get out there and practice our pitch to improve our ability to have a successful sales conversation?

[00:45:43] Well, I’ll tell you what I recommend to people when they do my courses. So the first thing is. Have as many sales conversations as you can. I often see people in the very early stages of business rushing too quickly to want to do the more advanced strategies like putting questionnaires in place and making an application process.

[00:46:02] So to begin with the more conversations you actually have, the more comfortable you will get. But one of the first things that I recommend and anyone listening could, could, could do this with a friend. If anyone listening has got a friend who’s also in business, you could go and sign up for my seven steps, Ts process.

[00:46:20] Um, and, and hopefully I can, you’ll be happy for me to share the link to that buddy up with another business friend. And practice that sales conversation on each other. And the reason I ask people to do that is that I know from experience because I’ve been teaching this stuff now for 10 years, believe it or not, I’ve been doing it a long time.

[00:46:37] People still, even though I teach the process, I do people still believe that there is something inherently salesy about it and they resist using it because they think it’s going to come across as manipulative. So I always say buddy up with another business owner, Tell them who you want them to pretend to be, to pretend to be one of your clients and practice the sales conversation with each other.

[00:47:00] And what happens is they go. Oh, my gosh, that felt so supportive. It didn’t feel like a sales conversation at all. And once they experience it for themselves,  what it feels like to be on the receiving end. And they realized that it didn’t feel salesy. That’s when they get the confidence to go out and have the conversations with their clients.

[00:47:18] And I often find that until they’ve experienced it by buddying up with somebody, they don’t have the  confidence to go out and start using it because they’re afraid of coming across as salesy. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. Yes. Um, the more conversation sales conversations you can have the better.

[00:47:35] And it’s just, as Catherine said, it’s just about getting that confidence. Like who was the famous sales person who said with confidence and enthusiasm, you can sell anything. And, um, I, I think there’s a lot to that. And especially if you’re coming from a very authentic, genuine place, I’m authentically competent representing myself with integrity, and I’m authentic really enthusiastic about that thing I’m selling to you.

[00:47:59] And if you get the right person in front of you, chances are you going to make a sale. Yeah. And conviction too. I talk a lot about conviction. You have to sound like you really believe in what you’re offering and that you have to sound that you really believe it’s the right thing for your client, because they can pick up on it

[00:48:16] if you don’t and it comes away and things like your tone of voice. Generally speaking, the more conviction you have, the more likely you are to be sitting back in your chair. The more likely you are to be relaxed and your shoulders are dropped and your throat is more relaxed than, than that. You’ll have a slightly deeper, slower tone of voice.

[00:48:36] The more you don’t have conviction, then you don’t really believe in it. And you’re a little bit anxious. So you sit forward and you lift your shoulders and you start to talk a bit faster when your voice lifts ever so little, but your clients can pick up on those subtle differences. And that conviction is so compelling.

[00:48:49] When you sound like you really believe in what you’re saying, your client cannot help, but believe it too. Oh, that’s so good. That is so good. What a great idea to end on. Catherine, I learned so much from this conversation. I think wherever the listeners are on their path, whether they’re beginners or very advanced, they’re going to receive so, so much from your wisdom.

[00:49:10] I know I did. We’re going to put all the links you mentioned in the show notes, but please tell our listeners how they can find you. Okay. So the best place to find me, my main online home is actually my website sellingfromtheheart.com and there are two things there that your listeners might want to sign up for to get started.

[00:49:30] The first is the seven steps, Ts my structure for an authentic sales conversation. They can sign up there. It’s a short video training series and it’s, it takes a total of 35 minutes to watch the whole thing and then they can go out and they can start to implement that sales conversation straight away, and maybe even buddy up and practice it with another business friend. I’ve also got

[00:49:52] and, and that is that, um, catherinewatkin.com forward slash seven steps and that’s the number seven Catherine watkin.com forward slash seven steps. And I’ve also got an authentic sales styles quiz because what I find is a lot of people make up stories about themselves that say, yes, I won’t be any good at sales because, but very often those reasons why they might feel hesitant about sales, that’s part of their authentic sales profile.

[00:50:20] But they’re often the things that actually make people particularly good at sales. So for example, one of the profiles is an empath. The empaths are often, um, a little more introverted, a little bit more sensitive. They feel like the whole idea of, of guiding a sales conversation feels totally outside of their comfort zone.

[00:50:39] Yeah. This is the group who are most likely to be best at sales because they’re natural listeners and they’re particularly good at picking up on, um, energetic signals and body language and so on. So the authentic sales styles quiz, there’s five different profiles and people will learn a lot about what’s holding them back.

[00:50:58] And what actually makes them naturally good at sales. And I think when people can see what makes them naturally good at sales, it also gives them a little bit more of a boost of confidence to get out there and be, you know, be more confident with, with having sales conversations. Nice. We are going to leave all of those links in the show notes.

[00:51:14] So you’ll be able to get your hands. On that really valuable, um, items. And the last, before we, before we say goodbye, uh, Catherine, I invite you to leave our listeners with an invitation. So it’s, it’s kind of like a challenge, but it’s a little bit softer where you invite them to be someone do something, something in between.

[00:51:36] I think, I think here’s my invitation to those who choose to accept it is to think about somebody who has at any time shown an interest in working with you or in the work that you do, whether it’s a small hint of an interest, or maybe even somebody that you had a sales conversation with, but they didn’t go ahead.

[00:51:56] Think about somebody who’s ever shown an interest. And today I would like you to go and, and reach out to them, see how they’re doing and see whether they’d be interested in having another conversation with you to find out more about whether now would be the right time. Beautiful invitation. I like that one.

[00:52:13] I like that one a lot. And I’ll just add, I think a lot of times we get this idea like, oh, they showed interest, but I don’t want to bother them. And we already talked once, but, um, you’re coming at them from a place of service because you want to serve them. So anyone who feels that is going to be happy for you, you to reach out to them again and say, do you want to talk again?

[00:52:35] And if they don’t, they just say, no, thank you. Right? No one’s ever offended by the fact that somebody out there is thinking of them. There’s there’s that that can be really flattering for people. Of course, if you, if you’ve, if you bombard them with five or six different messages and they’re not interested, that’s totally different.

[00:52:51] But Hey, I was just thinking about you today. I wondered if. No one’s ever going to object and you can trust that your client can decide whether to say yes or no. You don’t have to make that decision for them. I love it. Oh my gosh, Catherine, you are just a wealth of super valuable information for soul guided entrepreneurs.

[00:53:10] Thank you so much for being so generous with your wisdom. And I do really invite the listeners to go to Catherine’s website and check out all her amazing offerings. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me I’ve so thoroughly enjoyed. And thank you so much, dear listener for tuning in. If you’re loving on this episode, go ahead and hit subscribe wherever it is you listen.

[00:53:30] And as always, we would be so grateful for rating and review. It’s how we get better guests. It’s how we get better content to you and is essentially how we serve you to a higher level. So your feedback means the world to us, and we would really, really appreciate a few stars and a few nice words. Do you want to receive divine guidance and how to gain unstoppable momentum in the next 60 days, then download my free intuitive message and meditation to upgrade your energy frequency, dissolve the doubt and fill your business with soul clients.

[00:54:08] You’re here with a big soul mission and this message and meditation channeled directly from source will help you align your energy to it. Find a link to download on my website, Allyson scammell.com as well as in the show notes. .